User talk:Hellcat5

There is over 300 item filters and we don't want main item filter wiki page to become into advertising page. Im asking you to stop advertise your filter/ or add more low popularity filters with your filter. I also own really popular item filter but as you can see it doesn't exist on the "popular filter list".

Best regards, Ziggy.

Hellcat5 - My Reponse

Dear Ziggy,

I'm not sure where you get your information to support that there's over 300 item filters. If you're going from the implication that since there's more than 300 intelligent Path of Exile players who could have created an item filter, then sure it's possible to have 300, even 3000. However, I don't see anywhere on the forums listed this amount, nor shared with the community so the players can view and select one they prefer. I see eleven (11) filters listed at this "popular" and "sticky thread" item filter thread:

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1260664

I could see a logic to "we don't want main item filter wiki page to become into advertising page." IF I were providing a link that was outside of the path of exile official forums. The four filters previously listed in the "popular item filters" are from the path of exile forums. If you take the view that any link provided, regardless of its merit, is an advertisement, then you've already gone against your own rule by posting these "popular" item filters. If, however, since those four "popular" filters are also from the poe forums, that means mine is as valid an entry. I created my filter because I don't like the other filters, and I'm sharing it with ALL. I did add in other filters to the section I recreated again, this time titled "other item filter options" and posted all those listed from the linked forum thread.

If you think you control a community based wiki, you're wrong. If you think I'm going to back down, back away, whatever, you're wrong. I'm passionate about helping players, and I'm not afraid to express it and fight over it with anyone. I'm still interested to know if you're ZiggyDStarcraft, or someone who's decided to use a name with Ziggy in it to draw attention to yourself, or perhaps your name is actually Ziggy, and you're not Ziggy from https://www.youtube.com/user/ZiggyDStarcraft

You mention a popular filter. Which popular filter is yours Ziggy?

Editwar on item filter

Hello, I'd like to ask you and User:Ziggydtv to cease the editwar on the item filter page.

The list isn't as useful as it is, and it will be removed/reworked into a moderated list since it's quite frankly prone to edit wars as you can see.

You can also see the discussion about it on the community portal for further reference.

--OmegaK2 (talk) 12:25, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Response to User:OmegaK2

Hello!

To start, I'm happy you're here. However, I'm livid you're taking the "side" of this guy. Saying that my inclusion of the other 7 filters isn't as useful is not a qualified statement. It is highly useful. Making a statement that it's not useful is subjective. The wiki, again, is a community effort. I see you have Sysop status. Does this mean you have the power to ban me from Curse Inc.'s provided service because you disagree with the information I'm trying to provide people who're searching for filters? Again, the information I'm giving is valid, and correct. I see you left my textual changes to the Description of the page, but you refuse to allow my inclusion of what is now the other 7 remaining item filters. I strongly disagree with your approach on this, and I'll do whatever it takes to make this balanced as it should be. The page should either include all or none. If none, then the other 4 filters that have reached popularity only due to release timing and time of submission should also be removed from that page and included on the item filter page listed in a non-discriminatory fashion. I will fight you on this, and whoever else necessary. You can see clearly that while when I first only added my filter to the list, I've changed that to adding the other seven filters to the list. My reasoning for adding only mine at first is this - since this is a community effort the other creators for the filters have full right to add their own filters, so I did not add theirs.

What you're agreeing to is the discriminatory choices of someone who's using an account named Ziggydtv. ZiggyD (the real Ziggy) has confirmed that the person you're supporting is not he. You can find his official comment here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quy7bSQXgjE

Now, regarding my credentials for editing a wiki. Back in 2000 I decided to resume my self driven studies of a wide range of topics, including an intense study of the structure of language (this is called semiotics - http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/semiotics) . I focused on English for this process since that's my native tongue. I studied first semantics (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/semantics), then got into syntactics (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/syntactics), pragmatics (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pragmatics), and formal logical argument. According to logical argument, one must provide solid and agreed upon premises (propositions) to assert the validity of one's argument (https://sites.google.com/site/skepticalmedicine//argumentation-and-logic) and many people try to use logical fallacies to move people to side with them on their personal agenda (https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/)

So, with this said, I ponder these situations regarding your motivations toward your decision to again remove the seven additional filter links (please not I do not accuse. I'm stating possibilities):

1. perhaps someone or a group of people are paying you and / or other sysops for Path of Exile to control the wiki to promote only a certain group of people who are involved in real money transactions (RMT for short - this means people who go to sites that sell in game popular gear for real money) through selective dissemination of information, which further enforces the "authority" of those people who are involved in real money transactions. What you're doing is advertising only those who've reached over a certain amount of views in a discriminatory manner. The creators of these filters have the amount of views they have due to timing of release, and not due to any other qualification. I find no rules to the wiki that states a person must have certain credentials to modify or add valid information.

2. Perhaps the person at the other side of the Ziggydtv account is someone you know. In that case, we certainly need to get more people involved with maintaining the wiki as a source of unbiased information.

3. Perhaps you're taking the stance that you should revert the article back to a previous edition before the "wiki war" started.

Now, with this conjecture stated, I'd appreciate a thoughtful response for the reasoning regarding this. I'm going to make all necessary parties aware of this situation, which includes Curse Inc, the provider of the wiki, ZiggyD, and of course GGG. I saw someone mention wanting this wiki to be the "offical" wiki. This discussion shows a valid reason why GGG might not give permission to make it so.

Lets continue this discussion as adults, and work toward removing biased information from the wiki.

--Hellcat5 (talk) 19:20, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

First: To comment on a comment you should be using : to start an indented section (increase the indent if you comment on a comment). Also sign your comments with --~~~~.

Second, I think you misunderstood what I was saying. Besides not removing any of the links; I meant that *all* links to any kind of item filter, in the 'popular' section or otherwise will be removed and moved to list of item filters once the community has decieded on what they want to see there in what kind of detail. It is the collection of links that just by itself isn't very useful to the avarage user since they'll have no idea what the filters actually do and have to go though a ton of links and read up on each of them indivually. (You can also comment on it on reddit if you're more comfortable with reddit syntax)

Adding filters wasn't problem; I agree that the problem here is the other use who has removed these for no good reason - I've reverted it for the time being; but as I said the entire system will be changed soon.

I commented to both of you so I don't have to resort to edit protection on the page, as it is detrimental if people want to edit other parts of the page.

--OmegaK2 (talk) 18:05, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

------------------------------ MY Response to User:OmegaK2 -----------------------------------------

I must first comment that this style makes things harder visually to follow, so I'm including some changes to help people see what I'm responding with.

I see that the links are restored again from the late morning check I did. I've not spent time yet researching who made the changes to remove them before I woke. I'll presume, in good faith, that you didn't remove the links, and that someone else did based upon your above comment. I've also not checked to see who restored those seven filter links sometime between when I started writing my response to you and when I posted it. I presume you restored the links, and for that I give my appreciation.

I want to point out that we, people who've taken strong interest in maintaining the wiki, must avoid taking "community" as you mention above to be a select few people. The "community" for Path of Exile also includes people who don't communicate due to the bashing / flaming they sometimes receive depending on who happens to read a particular post on the forums. This wiki isn't reddit, and I will not all people who respond on reddit with things along the lines of, "you suk get Rkt n00b" to control this source of information. To say that the Path of Exile subreddit includes the entirety of the community is an assertion without supporting fact. If, it happens, that all players of Path of Exile have indeed created an account on and have subscribed to the subreddit for Path of Exile, this does not support the premise that all community people speak up for what they believe. You see the type of situations going on from what I've taken upon my self to do for the community. I first ran into someone who deleted my link because it didn't fit his personal definition of what should be included. I then looked to reason, and saw that my filter wasn't a "popular" so I created another section for people to add filters to. This was then removed and replaced by links to gay pornography, which I promptly removed and reported to Curse Inc.

Including such in a public forum to which minors have access falls partly under Title 18 of United States Code: (http://www.justice.gov/criminal-ceos/citizens-guide-us-federal-law-obscenity), partly discussed in 18 U.S.C. § 2252B Misleading domain names on the Internet and 18 U.S.C. § 2252C Misleading words or digital images on the Internet, along with code related to knowingly providing pornography in a place known to be frequented by minors. I'm dead serious about this. I'm involved in a movement that is tired of people conducting themselves in anti-social ways simply because they feel safe in anonymity. It's one thing entirely to assert anonymity when you're not doing anything wrong. Trying to use anonymity to avoid punishment does not work. We are all responsible for how we conduct ourselves in the world.

(http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/porn/prosecuting/overview.html)

To further comment, anyone who has evidence through any online public forum of misconduct according to law can subpoena the business providing the service to provide all the details regarding the user account, and contact information. see title 28a (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode28a/usc_sec_28a_02000045----000-_combined.html) I've dealt with previous situations where some gamers have stated that they think because they don't live in the same country that someone they offend by acting against the law in another country lives, that the offended can't do anything. That's most assuredly incorrect. Laws across governments co-exist to provide a world community for lawful social interaction.

I will participate, to my full ability, in the Path of Exile wiki by editing articles to ensure they remain a source of unbiased, polite, and correct information. I plan to read over the wiki projects, and become involved with the tasks at hand.

--Hellcat5 (talk) 19:20, 26 July 2015 (UTC)